289 Natalie & Glen Ledwell: Law of Attraction
Natalie Ledwell and Glen Ledwell are serial entrepreneurs and co-founders of the hugely successful and revolutionary personal development company Mind Movies. Married young and founding myriad businesses together before Mind Movies exploded on the scene in 2008, Natalie and Glen divorced 5 years ago yet maintain most friendly, respectful and effective executive relationships in business. How do they do it? They share how they navigated the crosscurrents of love and business plus the secrets of building a great team, and creating profitable and sustaining joint venture and affiliate agreements.
Melinda Wittstock: Natalie and Glen, welcome to Wings of Inspired Business.
Glen Ledwell: Thank you.
Natalie Ledwell: Hi, how are you?
Melinda Wittstock: I just want to welcome you both. I'm so excited to talk to you about your journey.
Natalie Ledwell: We're excited to share it.
Glen Ledwell: Happy to be here. We both like a bit of a chat and like to tell a story, so let's get into a story then.
Melinda Wittstock: Yeah, well you know what I'm really curious about, when couples join together in business as well as in love, what came first? Was it the business and then you fall in love with each other or was it you're in love and you end up in business? How did it play out?
Natalie Ledwell: Well, we were not in love. We definitely didn't really like each other very much in the beginning. So, I met Glen because he was dating my best friend and then he remained friends with us with my girlfriend and our sort of girlfriends. But we both back then … This was in our 20s. A little bit both very arrogant, very dynamic people, so we kind of rubbed each other off the wrong way.
Glen Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:01:27"] Yeah.
Natalie Ledwell: That's a nice way to put it.
Glen Ledwell: Pretty cocky.
Natalie Ledwell: Pretty cocky. Then I started dating a friend of Glen's and then the three of us started working in a business together, and that's when we started to realize, “Wow, you're not as bad as I thought you were. Yes, you were right.” But it was through the business and working together that we realized…
Glen Ledwell: That's when we become a couple but I think actually when we actually … It's both, really. That's how we kind of found that out, but the first business we actually went into as a couple was literally two weeks after we got married. No, before we got married. Before we got married I bought a nightclub, and Natalie being in the fitness industry, me being a club promoter, can you imagine? She starts at [spp-timestamp time="6:00"], I get home at [spp-timestamp time="6:00"] in the morning. So it's this … “Well, okay, well this is what we're doing,” so that was really … So it was our marriage that really forced us into being … run a business together.
Melinda Wittstock: That's so interesting. So as you go along the way on your journey and all the demands of business for any entrepreneur are significant as we know, right? Like the ups and downs, and so how did you support each other in that? Did you feel that you were really in it together? When one was up, the other was down? How did all that work?
Natalie Ledwell: Actually we were just talking about this story last night because the first six months of the nightclub business, we were renovating during the week and then we're trading on the weekends and it was really stressful. Individually the most stressful time of our lives but it was the first six months of our marriage, so we got to a point like we were just at each other all the time and we had to sit down and go, “Right, this is not working. How do we get through this?” We were able to have a conversation about, “When you say this, this is what I think you mean,” and he'd be like, “No, no, no, that's not what I mean at all.” So we were able to…
Glen Ledwell: It was like you said, we'd been together a couple of years but it's like that first part of your relationship when you're kind of working each other out but then you [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:03:31"] this new realm of everything together. That brought us closer together even though that was so hard because we started to realize … Well, we had to realize like in our relationship, our personal relationship, we compliment each other. You're really good at this, I'm really good at this. We have our own departments of where we used to talk about it, and this was true right through.
So if you're a couple and he's really good with this stuff, she's really good with this stuff, chances are you're going to be a good business partner which is why still today we're excellent business partners because we've always had opposite skill sets that compliment [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:04:10"] …
Melinda Wittstock: Yeah, it's like that book Rocket Fuel, right? Where there's the visionary and the integrator. You need the operational person, you need the … Or however that plays out, but a factor for sure for success is being good at different things so you're not in a competitive situation.
Natalie Ledwell: I think too, for [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:04:30"] …
Glen Ledwell: Good at the same thing, it won't work.
Natalie Ledwell: Yeah.
Glen Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:04:32"]
Natalie Ledwell: Every business that we went into, there was always that little bit of a teething period in the beginning where we're kind of figuring out what our roles were going to be, but once we figured out what our roles were, and this is why even after being separated for five years and no longer a couple, that we can still work together, because we respect each other enough to know that if that's your department, then I'm not going to stick my nose into that. I trust that you are going to do that competently well and vice versa, and so that's how we can move forward in business in a way that's complimentary.
Glen Ledwell: But I think that's a thing with couples too. We're obviously talking about good couples. The ego is removed, you know? Like if you're a loving couple, there's no ego about, “You do that better than me,” you know what I mean? If you're not a good couple I'm sure it's like bad business partners, so there was never into that because we had that in our personal relationship and our business relationship, so of course then when it just transitioned, it was the same thing, you know? It's respect. It's just respect.
Melinda Wittstock: Well there's nothing like entrepreneurship to test you, right? On a very personal level, like, you know, if you want personal growth, I would say become an entrepreneur because it will certainly accelerate your personal growth trajectory a lot faster than other pursuits say, right? So you're in a situation where you're getting to know each other much faster in those first six months. Like the things and the curve balls that business, no doubt, is throwing at you both allows you to get to know each other much better, faster.
Natalie Ledwell: And know ourselves better as well because when you're under stress like that, it brings up … it triggers a whole bunch of living beliefs and other behaviors and so forth, so you could really get to have a good [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:06:17"] of yourself as well as how you operate within the couple and then how you operate within business.
Glen Ledwell: But you know, this brings up a really good point that I was just thinking of. I remember in those times, and of course we learn it in that first business and then we've had several since then … So it was like I remember like nothing's stressful like that kind of a business. Like anything we'll ever do was not even similar, so it was kind of like understanding each other and what's going on just enough to know, “Okay, you've got your department over there but I know that you're getting death threats and the police are trying to do this to us.” Like I mean really not good stuff, right? But it was having that understanding, and we talked about it, didn't we? Because we both didn't like this situation. We didn't like the business we're in. We're like, “Okay, we're here, we're here.”
I'd say, “Do you want to step out and do something else,” you know? Then we'd discuss it. We'd go, “This is really hard but imagine not having a clue why you're like this, this week.” That would be harder for a couple, so you know what I mean? [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:07:28"] Couples go, “I want to separate it,” which no judgment, whatever people do that I think that was not just helped us together but it helped keep us together because we did understand what was going on, you know? For the most part.
Melinda Wittstock: Yeah, so this raises a really good point because I think when an entrepreneur is married to let's just call them a civilian, right?
Glen Ledwell: Yeah, yeah. [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:07:50"]
Melinda Wittstock: A nonpreneur, a normal person, a nonpreneur, right? That person is not really going to understand you. Regular people who don't do this on a regular basis let alone a serial basis, how on earth are they do understand you? So I think I see a lot of entrepreneurs starting on their second marriages, for instance, getting together with other entrepreneurs in the second or third time around because the first time around, they felt completely …
Natalie Ledwell: Isolated and alone because their partner didn't understand the stress that they were going through.
Glen Ledwell: It's not like you can blame the partner or whatever.
Natalie Ledwell: Yes. No, exactly.
Glen Ledwell: It just is what it is, you know?
Melinda Wittstock: Right, because you automatically know what each other is going through and you can kind of share that burden together. Were there times, though, that you had to just get away from each other or was that sort of built into the business in the sense that you're both off in your zones of genius…
Natalie Ledwell: Not really.
Glen Ledwell: No, you know, that was strange. No, us getting away was getting away from the stuff. We were never like that, were we? We were like, “No, us together, we're always together.” That wasn't our, “I've had enough of you” type deal. Well, maybe five years ago we might have [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:09:09"] …
Glen Ledwell: Maybe with that, but no, I was wondering what you were going to say because it was never like that. It was never, “Oh my God, I can't look or talk at you.” It was, “Let's get away, go in our [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:09:25"] home, whatever, alone, together.” [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:09:29"]
Natalie Ledwell: I think, too, what we do as a couple, which this conversation brought this up, is that we never blame. There's no blaming. There's no shifting of responsibility. It's like, “Okay, well this has happened.”
Glen Ledwell: That's [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:09:40"] …
Natalie Ledwell: “All right, so what's the solution? How do we move through this? How do we get through [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:09:44"]?”
Glen Ledwell: “How did you allow this to happen?” Haven't you heard it a million times? “I can't believe you did that.”
Natalie Ledwell: We'd never say that to each other.
Glen Ledwell: It'd be, “Shit, what are we going to do?”
Natalie Ledwell: Yeah, exactly.
Melinda Wittstock: Okay, so it's like an entrepreneurial attitude to your relationship.
Glen Ledwell: Yeah, totally. Totally.
Melinda Wittstock: Okay, because entrepreneurs are problem solvers.
Glen Ledwell: Yep.
Natalie Ledwell: Right.
Glen Ledwell: What's the result? How do we solve it? How do we solve it? How do we solve it?
Melinda Wittstock: Right, right.
Glen Ledwell: Oh, how did this happen? And I do this in business.
Melinda Wittstock: Got it.
Glen Ledwell: Someone screws up, I don't carry on. I only want to know what happened so you can give me the solution to how it's never going to happen again. Move on, you know?
Natalie Ledwell: When we started Mind Movies we knew nothing about the Internet. Like nothing, and knew very little about computers, and so the only thing in the beginning that we could contribute was writing emails, so we'd sit down to write the emails together and it was hilarious because I'd be typing it out. We'd be writing it together and then Glen would be like, “You need to put an ‘and' there.” I'm like, “No, no, no, that's not proper English,” so then we'd end up having this big fight about how we were supposed to write an email.
Glen Ledwell: You know the creative is trying to edit while they're doing it? We know how silly that is. That's exactly what we did.
Natalie Ledwell: But of course it's like you realize that this is a challenge, so I'm like, “Okay, what's the solution?” So I go, “Okay, this is the new system.” I go, “I'm going to write the email.”
Glen Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:11:07"]
Natalie Ledwell: “Then I'm going to give it to you to do whatever the hell you want with.”
Glen Ledwell: We didn't know that was the creative and the editing, or the thing and the marketing. It was just like, “This isn't working. We need another solution.” Yeah, of course.
Melinda Wittstock: Okay, so you guys were the epitome of lean startup before the book Lean Startup was written, right?
Glen Ledwell: Oh [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:11:27"] …
Melinda Wittstock: It's kind of this sort of school of how hard can it be? Oh, we'll figure it out. We'll fly the plane as we're building it and we'll figure it out together.
Glen Ledwell: That is we are the epitome of that. We are the [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:11:39"] …
Natalie Ledwell: Our motto is just bite off more than you can chew and then chew like hell.
Glen Ledwell: I think a lot of time … I mean, every entrepreneur can relate to that and a lot of times you screw up with that attitude but I often look back and I go, “Geez, I've wasted a lot of money and a lot of time with that attitude, but I've definitely made more.” You know?
Melinda Wittstock: Right.
Natalie Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:12:02"] The willingness to take the risks together which is what we've always done, and we know that we're in it together.
Glen Ledwell: Yeah, again we get back to the no blame. Look, if you haven't got a partner onboard, it's, “Oh shit, what if I put $100,000 into this thing and I lose it?” She or he is going to be pissed at me for the rest of my life over it. Not, “Hey, we want to roll the dice on this? Calculated thing.” Again, no blame.
Natalie Ledwell: Yeah, we made the decision together.
Glen Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:12:35"]
Melinda Wittstock: So I recall there were some adverse circumstances around the launch of Mind Movies. I mean, the fact that it's 2008, didn't Lehman just collapse or something when you're doing your launch or whatever?
Natalie Ledwell: Yeah it was crazy.
Glen Ledwell: Everything..
Melinda Wittstock: How did you deal with the stress as a couple at that time? How did you deal with that?
Natalie Ledwell: Yeah, that was also stressful. Not as bad as the nightclub but it was a different kind of stress.
Glen Ledwell: That was our perspective when we were like literally out of our minds. We were living down in [OB [spp-timestamp time="00:13:05"] and we'd go down to the dog beach because we knew that would calm us down and we'd have a [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:13:11"] and a coffee or something because we worked like 14, 16 hour days, and to calm us down but every single time we'd walk around the complex and every time I'd go, “No one's going to kill me today. We're not going to lose everything today. We're safe, right?” That was truly a … I always think of that. Whenever I got in a stressful situation, I go, “We're not going to die.” Everyone needs to have something go, “Well …” I always have done this. What is the worst case scenario?
Well the worst case scenario back in the club was pretty bad. What's the worst case scenario? This bombs. We're disgraced. We won't move on in this industry at all. We'll probably lose our house. Okay. If that's the worst and then go on again, but that's [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:14:03"] …
Natalie Ledwell: But for us because we are serial entrepreneurs although we've been in Mind Movies now for just over 10 years. You know, worst case scenario is that we lose money. We'll go, “Well, we know how to make it.” It's not like … [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:14:16"]
Glen Ledwell: That comes with the time and confidence that [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:14:18"] businesses. You know that.
Melinda Wittstock: That's really true. This one being number five for me, gosh, I know, right? Some of them really fly, some of them don't. What I think is interesting and especially talking to the founders of Mind Movies, how you get into that true alignment with your purpose … So when you're a couple, I mean, you have your purpose as a couple perhaps. You also have your purpose as individuals and getting that aligned with a business is hard enough for an individual and then …
Glen Ledwell: Totally, yeah.
Melinda Wittstock: Right? So I remember when Natalie, when you came on Wings of Inspired Business and you were talking about your beige years, these were the years I thought was hilarious … The characterization because you were doing a business that you didn't really feel was in your heart or you didn't feel aligned with, but then Mind Movies comes along and obviously it captures both of your higher purpose, and it is really about elevating people to a higher consciousness as well. Was that sort of the glue that … I mean, was that important to you in your relationship that you both felt that you were on some sort of higher mission together?
Natalie Ledwell: Well I think it has been important because when we separated, what we said was we keep the company at all costs because this is a platform that we've built and this message that we have is important.
Glen Ledwell: That wasn't even a conversation that needed to be had. We didn't have to say to each other, “No matter what, the business is going to go on and we're going to be fine.” We didn't even have to say that, because that was just how it was going to go.
Natalie Ledwell: It was a given.
Glen Ledwell: That's how [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:15:54"] …
Natalie Ledwell: But we are so grateful because unlike many couples, we both can follow what we're passionate about in the same business.
Glen Ledwell: Yeah.
Natalie Ledwell: Glen is passionate about marketing. He's amazing at it and thank God for him because otherwise no one would ever find us, but I'm passionate about teaching, so with the two of those things together, we've been able to create something that's just … We've reached 5.8 million people so far.
Melinda Wittstock: That's amazing.
Natalie Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:16:22"] It's like what?
Glen Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:16:24"] I'm a stat guy. We had 100 million impressions on Facebook last year.
Melinda Wittstock: Wow, okay.
Glen Ledwell: 100 million.
Melinda Wittstock: 100 million.
Glen Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:16:40"] Traffic and had 100 million impressions [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:16:40"] …
Melinda Wittstock: That's amazing.
Glen Ledwell: I like [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:16:42"] …
Melinda Wittstock: That's incredible though, about it, though, as well, as you think of how many lives that you're changing. You carry on in business together and doing all this together. So that's the glue that holds you together. You both are in your own lane, right? Natalie, you have this other huge thing that you're doing which we can talk about in a moment as well. I want to go back though to this decision to uncouple in the romantic sense and what was that like? Were you both sort of afraid to do that? Would it hurt the business? Were you feeling … How did all that work when thinking about the business and splitting up?
Natalie Ledwell: I think that in the end, and I think we agree, we kind of dropped the ball. We got very relaxed. I'll speak for myself. I had a little of a, “We're not other couples. We're better than other couples with our marriage, with [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:17:39"] …”
Glen Ledwell: Right, we were arrogant about our relationship is what you said, which is exactly the truth. [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:17:44"]
Natalie Ledwell: Yeah, so by the time we got to the end, we were both done, so having both of us … Whoops.
Melinda Wittstock: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:17:54"]
Natalie Ledwell: I think both of us on the same page was really helpful but then we maintained our business relationship and maintained the business. We both did something called the Hoffman Process in the year after we had split. I got to understand for me why certain things Glen would say would trigger me. Why I showed up in a certain way, and what my contribution was to the end of our marriage. So I was taking full responsibility for how I showed up in that, but also by doing that, it improved, I think, our relationship because I got to understand and release a whole lot of stuff that I didn't realize was triggering.
Glen Ledwell: But even in the beginning before that, I think that was really the point. You know, we were talking about as a couple, as partners, there wasn't the blame, and you know, I think … Because people ask us all the time, “Oh my God, you still work with your ex-wife,” and I have said the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. The reason couples don't do that, they can't be friends is because there's resentment. There's always blame. Always. Well let's say 99% of the time, and the 1% of the time there's no resentment or blame, they're friends and they're great friends.
Melinda Wittstock: Great friends-
Glen Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:19:04"]
Melinda Wittstock: Because you know each other so well, right?
Glen Ledwell: Yeah.
Melinda Wittstock: And without that resentment, so it's interesting, from a point of view of consciousness, one of the things that entrepreneurs really have to do to become great entrepreneurs in my view and you see this. It's a marker of success of all the best, they really have worked on, as you say, clearing out all the limiting beliefs, really getting more into intention, being in alignment with passion, purpose or whatever, and with that and with that gratitude and with all of that, really starts to come an ability to forgive, an ability to kind of … I don't know, be a little more dis-attached or less ego driven perhaps. I don't know [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:19:50"] whole bunch of different ways to …
Glen Ledwell: No but [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:19:52"] [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:19:53"] …
Natalie Ledwell: No, no, but even the forgiveness part is really interesting because I don't know if I really believe in forgiveness. There was nothing to forgive. You know, when you can sort of emotionally detach from situation and see everything that's [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:20:04"] you go, “Okay, I [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:20:05"]” …
Glen Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:20:05"] Okay.
Natalie Ledwell: Yeah, and I know without a shadow of a doubt that our souls are meant to be connected in this lifetime. Even though we're not married anymore, we're still connected in business and our mission and the platform and everything, and we're following our passions, like Glen has his [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:20:24"] whole program and everything coming out and the book which is amazing.
Glen Ledwell: It's not really my passion [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:20:30"] …
Natalie Ledwell: Okay.
Melinda Wittstock: But you two are such a positive example for people, so I think being in business together as a couple, it's either going to break up your … Your business isn't going to work if you don't have it together as a couple or your business is going to make you understand yourself, that you weren't actually meant to be together, right? And it's all going to fall apart, or like you guys, you have … There's a reason. There's a mission. There's something bigger, it seems to me.
Glen Ledwell: Yeah. [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:21:06"]
Melinda Wittstock: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:21:05"] Individuals and why you're doing [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:21:09"] …
Natalie Ledwell: Yeah, absolutely, and I think too the other thing is that we're always a united front. We'll discuss different things within our company and whether we see eye to eye on everything, we'll have a lively discussion about it but at the end of that, we'll always go, “Okay, but this is our stance on it,” and then we'll always back each other up.
Glen Ledwell: You said to me the other day and it was like … It always gives me a little … even though I know this and we just had a situation with someone … Whatever, it's just a part of [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:21:43"] uncomfortable and I just said, “Oh, you know, I just want to make sure we're on the same page.” He goes, “Glen-o, we're always on the same page.” I was just like, “We are.” That little reminder, so to say that's … yeah, understatement. You've got to be though.
Melinda Wittstock: So a lot of couples talk about this work life balance which I think is kind of a myth. Maybe we could call it boundaries, but you know, I think it's work life integration personally, but you know, how you show up when you're at work and as an entrepreneur, it's always … I don't know. I think it's always in the back of your mind, what's going on with your company and all of that. How do you kind of step out of that, though, into being, say, romantic with each other. Was that a challenge for you guys at different points in your marriage? Did it start [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:22:32"] …
Natalie Ledwell: Clearly, darling, because we're not together anymore.
Melinda Wittstock: Okay, okay, so … Right.
Glen Ledwell: It wasn't [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:22:38"] …
Natalie Ledwell: It wasn't doing the business.
Glen Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:22:39"]
Natalie Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:22:39"] Honestly …
Glen Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:22:42"]
Natalie Ledwell: Here's the thing. We always knew the lifestyle that we wanted to live. We knew we wanted to travel and to live abroad and the whole thing, so we were always looking for the business vehicle that could sustain that kind of a lifestyle for us, so we kind of reverse engineered it. We had a friend that approached us with the idea of Mind Movies and we didn't, even then, see the … We understood a little bit of the potential on it but it wasn't until that we started …
Glen Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:23:10"]
Natalie Ledwell: Getting all these emails coming in that we started to realize, “Wow, hold on a minute. This is important. [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:23:16"]
Glen Ledwell: It was just another little side venture that we were doing with our other four companies at the time.
Natalie Ledwell: Exactly.
Glen Ledwell: You know? [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:23:20"]
Melinda Wittstock: It's always the side hustle that's the thing that takes off. I don't know what that is. Maybe it's because we're just not attached to outcome or we're not pushing too hard on it, whatever, and it gets in the flow or something like that.
Glen Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:23:32"] $2,300 to start my own business.
Melinda Wittstock: Wow.
Natalie Ledwell: That was our initial investment.
Glen Ledwell: Oh, you're okay. Give that a go. What, two grand? Give that a go.
Melinda Wittstock: Yeah, why not?
Glen Ledwell: Let's give that a go.
Melinda Wittstock: Why not? So if you look back, though, at these pivotal moments in your married life in business together, what advice would you give couples, say young couples looking back … say where you were, say around the time of the launch of Mind Movies or other times in your life, is there anything that you would've done differently? Is there any advice you would give to [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:24:07"] …
Natalie Ledwell: No I wouldn't, but if couples are in business, what I would recommend is that when an issue does come up, that you fix it quickly, because if you don't, then it festers into resentment and resentment's a hard thing to come back from. So like [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:24:23"] saying with the emails, we only did that for two weeks. I'm like, “Right, new system because this is [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:24:28"] …”
Glen Ledwell: That's [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:24:30"] … Actually that's all relationships. Friendships, partnerships, every ships, right?
Melinda Wittstock: Right.
Glen Ledwell: No one communicates. No one has the uncomfortable conversation. My favorite saying always will be Richard Branson's saying is your success, your wealth, your whatever you call success … Right? It could be your marriage, is directly proportional by the amount of uncomfortable conversations you have.
Melinda Wittstock: Right. Yes.
Glen Ledwell: I live by it and every time … Well not really with us, that was not the case, but I always, when you sit … People go, “You're fine with those conversations.” No, it makes me sick to the my stomach but I say to myself, “I'm going to be more successful after this conversation.” I do it all the time, still today, but in your relationship, to say that that's important.
Melinda Wittstock: So this is-
Glen Ledwell: This is the advice I would give, which no one does with a marriage or a partnership. Set expectations. Sit down and do this. I'm about to get married again. We're going to have this conversation. No one does it before marriage. No one does it before a partnership. I've been doing this with partners for years and I've never, ever, ever, ever had a bad situation since I've been doing this. What it is, this is the … The couple, when they're getting married, do it. Then when they're going into business, do it again. Okay. What do you expect and go into detail. I expect that you will work as hard as me or I don't expect you to do anything at all.
What if you decide that we want to move overseas? What if this [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:26:02"] … What when this … There's always a problem when there's no money or a lot of money. Bit of money? Everything's fine, but all these partnerships, and I say okay, forget if it's not your husband or wife [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:26:12"] anyone, think of the worst things. We're only going to deal with this for an hour. Think of the worst possible things that you can even imagine possibly happening. Let's talk about what would happen if, and then you know what? After we've brought all that down, you know what you've got? A shareholder's agreement [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:26:26"] …
Melinda Wittstock: Yeah, it's like taking money from a VC. No, seriously, you have to make sure-
Glen Ledwell: No, it really is, and you know what? People inherently want to do the right thing. They're just very forgetful sometimes, especially to do with money, the scarcity mindsets around people, we know all that, and because I've been in so many partnerships and businesses, I've experienced all sides of that, but doing this, you never have to go, “Hey, remember when we …” They remember and they know it's written and they knew they agree.
Melinda Wittstock: Yeah, it's kind of like the company figuring out it's kind of mission and vision statement, its purpose, all of that, making sure that people are in the right seats doing the right … I mean, all the things that make a great company and the relationship building, right? Because it is … business really is about people. It's about relationship. All those things make you probably better as a couple, as a partner, but working that out in a really great relationship probably also makes you better in business. There's such linkage between the two I think.
Natalie Ledwell: Absolutely.
Glen Ledwell: Totally, and you know what? I think again another thing for couples, the same as partnerships, like I've seen partnerships and couples, whatever they've got, it's simple, like we've talked about. Oh yeah. Similar skill set, it's not going to work. It's not going to work, and if it is a similar skill set, these are your roles, these are my roles. I'm in charge of this, you're in charge of that, because I think that's probably where a lot of conflict comes because you get two strong, opinionated people, right? We would clash if we were doing the same … We would class all the time, and thank goodness we didn't have the same skill sets and we're happy to do that but we fell into that, so I'd say to a couple, I'd say, “Hang on a minute. Just think about that. Do you have your different departments?” In your romantic life and your business life, but even more [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:28:18"] …
Melinda Wittstock: Exactly. Yeah, and you guys did not have children together, so there are other entrepreneurial couples who are balancing this with little kids and all this kind of stuff and then the roles between men and women … Oh my God, right?
Glen Ledwell: Yeah.
Melinda Wittstock: So, do you think it would've been different? Do you think that would've put a strain on it? Or how would you-
Glen Ledwell: Do you think?
Melinda Wittstock: Right? So did you basically decide, “You know what? This kid stuff is a bridge too far?” Or …
Glen Ledwell: I can't even tell you. I can't even imagine what that would be like. Doing that as well [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:28:52"] …
Natalie Ledwell: It was a conscious choice not to have children but I never wanted them. I always knew I wasn't going to have them, and I'm one of eight kids. I'm from a big family. I've got 15 nieces and nephews, so we're surrounded by [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:29:03"] but yeah, but even when … That was the conversation we had the morning after Glen proposed to me 20-odd years ago. I'm like, “So you know I don't want to have kids.” He's like, “Me neither.” I'm like, “Really?” I'm like [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:29:15"] …
Glen Ledwell: Really? [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:29:17"] …
Melinda Wittstock: Okay, because you aligned expectations very early on.
Glen Ledwell: Exactly.
Melinda Wittstock: You know? I suppose if you threw kids into the mix, and I think this is where a lot of women just go into total overwhelm, because they try and do it all and confuse have it all with do it all and that kind of stuff. So you add kids into that and all the mom's guilt and all that kind of stuff and it can be quite difficult for women in business.
Glen Ledwell: Totally.
Melinda Wittstock: And then how does the mankind of step into that? So all these rules are being rewritten all the time, and I think this podcast is interesting for that, that everybody has their different approaches, but gosh, there are not enough hours in the day, right? I know I juggle kids, business, all of it. Right? I don't know.
Glen Ledwell: I just say respect.
Natalie Ledwell: And I say [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:30:05"] … Why wouldn't you run your household like a business too?
Melinda Wittstock: Yes, but then you learn to do that.
Natalie Ledwell: Yes.
Melinda Wittstock: And then you also learn … You recover from the perfectionist gene super fast because, you know what? If you've got kids running around your house and you're an entrepreneur and you're trying to make your house look pretty …
Glen Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:30:26"]
Natalie Ledwell: You pay people to do that.
Glen Ledwell: You know what? But it's [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:30:29"] …
Melinda Wittstock: You pay people for that.
Glen Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:30:32"] As well … You've got to get rid of that if you ever want a life and you were going to grow in your business, as a person. Well, I never thought about it. Of course as a parent, yeah, yeah. You'll let that shit go real quick.
Melinda Wittstock: It's really true. I've found just with my kids though, in a way, if you can manage toddlers, you can manage just about anybody. Right? That's my attitude. I came to motherhood later in life but I think they made me a better entrepreneur and being an entrepreneur made me a better mom, kind of worked out. But I think … Oh gosh, there's so much wisdom in all that you're sharing, so I want to make sure there's a chance to talk a little bit about Mind Movies and all the exciting things that Mind Movies is up to. I mean, it's huge. You've got all this moving to some pretty serious tack I understand. It's going to be a virtual reality, augmented reality thing as well?
Glen Ledwell: That's another thing.
Natalie Ledwell: That's right.
Glen Ledwell: Why don't you talk about the kid stuff and then I'll [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:31:32"] …
Melinda Wittstock: Yeah, well I want to-
Glen Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:31:34"]
Melinda Wittstock: I want to talk about-
Glen Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:31:36"]
Melinda Wittstock: I want to talk about Mind Movies, get all that and then also I want the update from Natalie on all the amazing things … Natalie, honestly, hats off to you for bringing consciousness and law of attraction and all these amazing things to kids because that's really where a lot of those beliefs begin, and deal with them right away. Save people a lot of time in their lives, and so we can talk about that first and then come back to Mind Movies and all the great things, like where you two are going together and on your own in the future.
Natalie Ledwell: Well, you know, the planet is in crisis and I just got to a point where I cannot read another story about a 10 year old committing suicide, because a lot of children right now, they just don't know how to deal with the overwhelm, so I teamed up with a girlfriend of mine, Debbie [Sellwood [spp-timestamp time="00:32:33"] from Australia. She's the child psychologist specialty therapist and so we created a curriculum for schools which teaches kids about emotional intelligence. You know, how to shift from a low energy mood to a high energy mood. If you can't do that, who are your safe people who you can go to for help?
If you're a little bit older, how do you set yourself personal standards? How do you conduct yourself online and in person? Then all the success habits that we wish we had known when we were kids, like gratitude, empathy, compassion, meditation. It's actually an all encompassing program and we've covered from five years old up to 18 and of course included in there is the children's version and the teenage version of the Mind Movies software so that kids could get in there and create a movie that depicts the life and the results that they want to be able to achieve in their lives, and for them to be able to have that ability and that success at a young age, it really helps to set them up to believe that they really can achieve anything they put their mind to, so it's really exciting. I'm so focused on getting it to US schools this year. We have a pilot program going in Liberia in Africa right now. 500 students and 16 teachers, and it's going spectacular-
Glen Ledwell: We had the test in Detroit. The school, the one in Australia, the one in New Zealand as well, so we're [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:33:53"] …
Melinda Wittstock: Right, and, plus anyone listening to this that knows their friendly head of the school board or whatever, seriously, Natalie, we need to connect, right?
Natalie Ledwell: Absolutely.
Melinda Wittstock: That's what you're looking for? No, but it's true. It's so, so, so important so it's [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:34:11"] …
Glen Ledwell: This is something that … where Natalie needs to take entirely all the credit for this. She has been pushing and pushing and pushing on this for … What, we've been in business 12 years, at least for 10 of those years. But it's hard, right? It's really, really hard, and from the business guy, trying to keep a company running, it's like, “Yep, do that. I know it'll never make any money but it's a great thing,” right? So it's never obviously … I don't even know the amount of money we've wasted [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:34:41"] … Not wasted, put into that, but it's never been … really become, “Oh my God, actually this is really happening now,” because she's persevered and persevered and persevered.
Because right when we started the company, we're like, “Okay, we want to reach a million people.” I'm like, “A million people.” Now we've got a million YouTube views or something in that first few months, whatever. It's like, “Okay, what would change the planet?” Like really. 100 million would change the planet.
Melinda Wittstock: Yeah.
Glen Ledwell: So like, okay, 100 million. How do we get 100 million? Like Natalie said, what, five, six million people we've reached. Yeah, okay, hundreds of millions have seen an ad but actually opted in for our information. It's like nearly six million people. Okay, that's not knowing you're getting there but the thing is, that's one … Our avatar is a 50 year old woman. One generation. The kids now listen to her. Parents aren't listening to her. The child is immediately three. Parents or grandparents, immediately three and then the flow on from that, the 100 million's like this [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:35:45"] ..
Melinda Wittstock: Yeah it becomes … Yeah, it's exponential. It becomes [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:35:49"] expands.
Glen Ledwell: [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:35:50"]
Melinda Wittstock: Right.
Glen Ledwell: So that's really always been the goal, is in my mind, I'm like, “Geez, will we ever get there? Will we ever actually …”
Natalie Ledwell: We will.
Glen Ledwell: Make [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:36:03"] …
Melinda Wittstock: Oh, we will, because there's so many of us now showing up in this, and Natalie, you and I were both at the Evolutionary Business Council meeting where we're part of this amazing organization with a tremendous collective reach amongst all of us, but we were talking about the UN global goals and the fact that the UN has said, “Well, by 2013, to meet any of these, it's a requirement that the population of the globe becomes conscious,” so the EBC, we're like, “Okay, what's the tipping point? What's the 15% tipping point?” It's like 1.2 billion people, how to elevate them to consciousness, so what you do with Mind Movies and Natalie, what you're doing for kids, and I think all of us, whether in podcasting or with our businesses or whatever play a role in that ecosystem, I don't know, does it feel like this to you? It feels like it's speeding up. Like more and more people are kind of getting it.
Glen Ledwell: We've been saying this for a couple years really, haven't we? It feels that way [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:37:06"] is it just because we're in it [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:37:07"] …
Melinda Wittstock: Yes, I know.
Glen Ledwell: It definitely does.
Melinda Wittstock: It does feel like that, right? I question that. I think, “Oh, it's just because I'm in it because I'm more and more like this. I'm attracting … Law of attraction. I'm attracting more and more people like that too,” but it's just the ease with which in a shopping kind of … a line buying milk or something, you can have a conversation about consciousness. I don't think that could've been possible a couple of years ago.
Glen Ledwell: Yeah [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:37:31"] …
Natalie Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:37:31"] Even when I go home to Australia for Christmas and New Year's every year, the level of conversation I'm having with my family and with our friends that we knew from the nightclub days has been consciously growing as well, so I see it everywhere. It's not just the California bubble that we live in.
Glen Ledwell: No, it's true.
Melinda Wittstock: Okay, so as part of 10Xing together and also Wings of Inspired Business, both of you, I'd love to give you both a special request of our listeners or the chance to provide an offer for them or just a great piece of advice. So who wants to go first?
Glen Ledwell: Well, I'll stop by the exciting thing that we're doing with the company now which is talk about 10Xing. It's probably will but we've … We're not changing direction. Mind Movies has always been Mind Movies and what we're doing. We're always producing new content and new products and everything to do with that, but a few years ago we started another brand called Abundant Entrepreneur, because we saw this need. People kept reaching out, kept reaching out. They started to realize that, “Okay, this didn't just happen. You've got to have both skill sets, right? Right?” That's a very beginner … A lot of our community going [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:38:50"] make some money on wine, blah, blah, blah. So [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:38:52"] …
But just now, and it's kind of through I want to say reluctantly but not really, not really, the way that we really built the whole company from the beginning was on joint venture stuff, affiliates, and it was … we just worked at what we were good at. I just … Well, I know how to talk to people, so not really knowing, I developed a system that I have been using and not really teaching for a long, long, long, long time. Anyway, a friend that I partner with … it's a couple years ago now. We wrote a book about every fundamental to do with joint ventures. How to attract affiliates, how to get [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:39:32"] blah, blah, blah, blah.
Then we created a program, then we created a software, so anyway, this is a brand new, I'm the face of it. I've never been the face of anything, which I go, “I'm excited but it's not really my thing.”
Natalie Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:39:47"]
Glen Ledwell: It's very exciting. It's very, very exciting, and we have launched it now and we're just testing the funnel for that now, but …
Melinda Wittstock: That's great.
Glen Ledwell: I wanted to tell you about that, but … So I'd say …We've got all entrepreneurs on the call. I would just say go to a page called JVHacking.com. You can get my book for free there and there's an opportunity to get on a webinar. It's all free, and get some great information that way. If you're considering trying to get affiliates, wanted to do anything to do with joint ventures, run a product launch, anything to do with that, it's really good information.
Melinda Wittstock: That's fantastic.
Natalie Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:40:24"]
Glen Ledwell: It's basically the exact way that I built the entire company.
Melinda Wittstock: Oh, that's amazing. So it's such a generous give forward too and so important for people. I think business is really transforming to be much more of we're playing in ecosystems. We need to be good at playing with each other as we move from kind of scarcity thinking to abundance mindset. It's sort of the age of the JV, I guess, right?
Glen Ledwell: Yeah.
Natalie Ledwell: Well the new business paradigm is collaboration and joint ventures is an incredible way to do that.
Glen Ledwell: Well the thing is with joint ventures, and I'm not saying, “Oh, it's the be all, end all. It's the way you have to do it.” I'm not saying that at all. There's many, many, many new ways but probably half of our total income we've earned in the last 12 years has been specifically from joint ventures. Oh, it's pretty big. We didn't know how to do anything at all about traffic and we've been a multi-million dollar business in the first few years specifically with JVs and the thing is, is it easy? It's not easy but it's simple. It's simple, and the thing that I love about it which anyone starting out, it doesn't take any money. It's time. There's no risk.
Melinda Wittstock: So cultivating all those relationships, building the trust …
Glen Ledwell: There's no risk.
Melinda Wittstock: Right, so anybody …
Glen Ledwell: You don't have to spend a ton of money to see if something's going to work. Obviously you test your stuff [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:41:52"] whatever. When you're starting out, you just form relationships with other affiliates about on your level. You help each other out. You send each other traffic. Doesn't cost anything. It's lost maybe … It's not til you get much, much bigger [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:42:05"] hang on a minute, there's a major cost in this or a lost cost in this.
Melinda Wittstock: Right.
Glen Ledwell: So it's a nice way to start if you haven't got tons of money to go and spend on media and other ways to get traffic.
Natalie Ledwell: It's a great way to do business, remember?
Glen Ledwell: Oh, it's a fun way.
Natalie Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:42:19"]
Melinda Wittstock: That's fine. There's a few parties involved in this, I sense.
Glen Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:42:24"] It is a fun [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:42:26"] …
Natalie Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:42:27"] Business.
Glen Ledwell: Yeah.
Melinda Wittstock: Yeah, no-
Glen Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:42:32"]
Melinda Wittstock: Definitely … Yeah, yeah, exactly. I mean, I'm willing to bet that just the enlightenment with which you both approached your relationship, your marriage and your business now is also the same magic that informs a lot of the joint ventures. Obviously getting expectations aligned at the beginning, would that be rule number one of a great JV relationship?
Glen Ledwell: Yeah, pretty much.
Melinda Wittstock: Right. You see, there's a synergy here between that?
Glen Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:43:03"]
Melinda Wittstock: The marriage [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:43:04"] …
Glen Ledwell: It really is.
Melinda Wittstock: That's awesome. Oh my goodness, that's great. Okay, so JV hacking. So everybody check that out.
Glen Ledwell: JVHacking.com.
Melinda Wittstock: Yeah. JVHacking.com and I'll be there, Glen. I think this is awesome. I mean, what you've done, both of you with Mind Movies and just the relationships and how you've built that is truly amazing, so really congratulations, and so fascinated by where Mind Movies can go with a lot of the new technologies. When you think of all the AI and the augmented reality, virtual reality, that you could literally step into your vision. Like your vision board could be really holistic and can be …
Glen Ledwell: We're working on that right now.
Natalie Ledwell: Yeah.
Melinda Wittstock: Yeah.
Natalie Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:43:49"]
Melinda Wittstock: That's a massive opportunity. That's really exciting.
Natalie Ledwell: Yeah.
Melinda Wittstock: Yeah, congrats on that. Okay, so Natalie, what's your ask? I know we've got a … Anyone, school board people, ping me and I will … If you know them, and I will definitely connect you with Natalie because she needs to know school board people to spread this all over the place.
Natalie Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:44:13"] If anyone who has [inaudible [spp-timestamp time="00:44:14"] to make a financial decision on the purchasing of curriculums, that's exactly what I'm looking for right now.
Melinda Wittstock: Okay. That is awesome. Well, I want to thank you both so much for joining us on Wings of Inspired Business. You know, putting on your wings and flying in this couples' edition 10X Together.
Glen Ledwell: Awesome. Well this has been kind of fun, really.
Natalie Ledwell: It has been really fun. We actually very rarely do interviews together so I was like [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:44:41"] …
Glen Ledwell: We don't. Very rarely.
Melinda Wittstock: Yeah, we'll have to-
Glen Ledwell: [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:44:44"]
Melinda Wittstock: We'll have to have you … Yes, we'll have to have you on again. It was just great. I just love the energy that you both bring to it and in such a testament and a model for other people that don't have to have crappy relationships, or if they're in one, you know, a [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:45:03"] expectations to get out of it if you're in a really bad one, but how you've choreographed this together is wonderful and very inspiring, so thank you so much.
Natalie Ledwell: Thank you, darling.
Glen Ledwell: Thanks [crosstalk [spp-timestamp time="00:45:15"] …
Natalie Ledwell: Great chatting with you.
Glen Ledwell: You too.